4 Oxygen sensors ?

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  • #64158
    Andy K
    Participant

      I have a V8 with 4 oxygen sensors.

      The upstream sensors (nearest engine) measure a consistent 3.47V. (with a multi meter).
      The down stream sensors post cat measure the normal 0.1 – 0.9 V

      I first thought the sensors had been fitted the wrong way round, but the cables aren’t long enough to be the other way round.

      1) How on earth does this control fueling post cat?

      2) Why does the other sensor always measure 3.47V? Does the current vary?

      Thanks for any guidance.

      #64348
      Importech
      Participant

        Hi, The post cat sensors are typically used by the ECM to monitor catalyst efficiency. The front sensors, judging by the voltage reading, are wide band sensors. Sometimes referred to as air/fuel sensors. The voltage reading is a little different than from o2 sensors. O2 sensors will often oscillate between 200 millivolts and 800 millivolts. Hi voltage is richer, low is leaner. Wide band sensors will tend to be somewhat steady at say 3.3 volts, 3.2 volts if rich, 3.4 volts if lean. The actual voltage reading varies by car manufacturers, but you get the idea. If you monitor the voltage as the engine warms up from cold start you’ll see how they respond.

        #64864
        Andy K
        Participant

          Thank you for the reply.

          The car is a 2001 jaguar with denso sensors

          I’m a bit confused about what comes first!

          The fuel trims are going around to -10% -20% at idle (but ok on motorway).
          Is this rich or weak?

          The car is reporting too rich fault codes (and I believe that by the MPG and sooty plugs)

          But you say 3.4V is lean? So is that causing it to richen?

          I’ve seen one bank oxygen sensor likes to get stuck low at 0.1V rather than oscillate like the other bank. (but this sensor is post CAT)

          #66020
          Importech
          Participant

            When the fuel trims are at -10%-20% it means that the ECU is having to lean out the fuel mixture to compensate for a rich condition. The ECU uses the exhaust sensor to verify the correction.

            #66144
            Andy K
            Participant

              Ok thanks.

              I replaced Bank B oxygen sensor yesterday.

              #84004
              jkreutzer
              Participant

                I’ve read your previous posts on this problem. The reason for this site is to learn not to replace parts without cause but to learn to use deductive reasoning and our test equipment to establish why and where something has gone wrong. It has taken me some time to resist the urge to replace parts, but the satisfaction has been that when I do, the problem is resolved.

                In order to fully understand your car’s problem/s it would be best to start with the exact codes you are getting and the STFT and LTFT for both banks of the engine.

                From what I have read, your car is running rich for some reason. The STFT and LFTF from both banks will establish a basis for figuring out where things have gone wrong. As you have found out, replacing O2 sensors does not correct the problem.

                Your car has four O2 sensors as most do. Two are located in the exhaust head pipe one each on either side of the engine and two down stream. One ahead of the cat and one after the cat. The two at the head exhaust pipe are the ones that tell the computer how to manage the fuel injectors to supply fuel to run your car. The computer receives data from other sensors to know how to control fuel.

                #92351
                Andy K
                Participant

                  Thanks for the reply. Have you seen my other post here:

                  Jaguar xj 308 P0172 P0175 RIch

                  Yes I would love to replace the exact faulty part! But also, if you don’t change anything, nothing improves.

                  I did monitor the O2 graphs and noticed a trend with bank B, that the trace would stay low a lot. So thought I best replace to rule out a faulty sensor.

                  I know most cars do the fuel trims on the sensor nearest the engine, but I’m sure this car is doing it on post cat sensors!

                  sensors nearest the engine read around 3V.
                  Post cat sensors are 0.1-0.9V. Cables aren’t long enough to swap round

                  #92403
                  jkreutzer
                  Participant

                    Import is correct. The 2001 Jag uses Air Fuel Sensors (AF). They work differently from the narrow band 02 sensors.

                    You’re not going to get much data from using a DVOM as the AF sensors measure in mV changes(current). You will have a stoichiometric reading in voltage for your car. You need to have a scan tool which will give you an equivalent ratio reading. That will tell you what voltage reading is stoich. 14:7:1 for your car (each is different for makes and models). A reading of less than :1 is rich and greater than :1 is lean. That’s just the opposite of a 02 sensor.

                    Both upstream AF should be reading a steady voltage. You say you’re getting a rich condition code. That is the reason for the -trims. The computer is taking away fuel to compensate. Without knowing the stoich number I would have to reason that the 3.4v reading is below stoich.

                    Your engine is getting to much fuel by a bad pressure regulator or a leaking injector, bad EGR or EVAP problem. These are a few things that can cause too much fuel. Find the fuel delivery problem and I bet the trims, AF and CAT problems will go away.

                    #92612
                    Andy K
                    Participant

                      Ok thanks. I’m starting the get somewhere I think.

                      I do have a diag reader, and have looked at the graphs.
                      One bank moves between say 0.6 and 0.4v

                      The other bank, likes to get stuck around 0.1. And this is why I changed the sensor on this bank, just in case.

                      However the fuel trims for both banks track together.

                      I have checked the fuel pressure many times. Its ok. Not high.

                      The problem seams to occur at idle. If I drive on the highway, the trims are good.

                      When I have the AirCon on, it seams to cause a lot of spikes on the graph. (at idle – when clutch kicks in)

                      I could believe an evap problem. Things get bad when I refuel.

                      I tested the purge valve recently. I followed the video guidance! It fully closes, and when manually put 12V to it, the engine stalls.

                      #92613
                      Andy K
                      Participant

                        Maybe I need to get a better ISO9141 diagnostic tool, to look at the upstream sensors. (rather than downstream)

                        actually Mine says,
                        oxygen sensor 5 wide range equivalence 14.65
                        oxygen sensor 1 wide range equivalence 14.53

                        What the hell is oxygen sensor 5 !!!

                        #92739
                        jkreutzer
                        Participant

                          your AF’s appear to be working fine… the engine is still getting too much fuel. Even though the fuel pressure is normal at idle you can still have a fuel delivery problem. That’s why it clears up a higher RPM. Do a leak down test of each injector. Rule out that an injector is leaking. You can do all at once by charging the fuel system then turn off the key off and let the system rest for 15min. If pressure drops more than a couple of PSI, you have a leaking injector. I re read you posts, but I don’t see where you listed a code fault. Are you getting a P1172?

                          #92791
                          Andy K
                          Participant

                            Will check to see if the fuel pressure holds. Thanks.

                            Codes here. Rich both banks.

                            Jaguar xj 308 P0172 P0175 RIch

                            #92868
                            jkreutzer
                            Participant

                              Ok… good on the right track. If you get a loss of pressure in the overall fuel pressure, next step is to check each injector. If you have a bi directional scanning program, you can test each injector one at a time. So first thing is to check for a loss of total fuel pressure and correct pressure readings. 38-46psi. Charge the system (keyOn) then let set for 15-30 min (keyOff). Note loss is any. No more than 1psi loss.

                              #95071
                              Andy K
                              Participant

                                So just a small update. I can’t perform the full test as my setup started leaking!

                                What I did find out, (without the engine running).

                                With the pump running I get 45psi. As soon as the pump is stopped I get 40psi.
                                This is consistent and instantaneous. and before I had a leak.

                                Will update when I get a new hose.

                                #95472
                                jkreutzer
                                Participant

                                  looks like you found the problem. you should not have a loss in fuel pressure after de-energizing the system… especially 5psi that quick.

                                  your problem is leaking fuel injectors or a failing fuel pressure regulator. with the engine running, pull the vacuum line on the fuel pressure regulator. check for fuel in the vacuum line or at the nipple of the regulator. leave the vacuum line off for several min and check for fuel coming out of the regulator. this could take a few seconds or a few min so be patient and run the engine for 10min or so. if you get fuel, replace the regulator.

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